I hate raid.

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harlequin
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i started with raid0 arrays when we bought our storm
it died within 6 weeks , so i rebuilt them.
they died again recently , so quick changeover to new drives , and this time raid1.

MIRROR

so no problems .....

i wish ..... raid array 2 , all 250 GB mirrored went south this morning .... now slowly correcting itself.

I therefore cannot suggest raid to anyone doing video editing.
In theory it is great , but just as much hastle when it goes wrong.

Gary MacKenzie

sepulce@hotmail.com ( an account only used for forum messages )

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Wisz
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Hard Luck Gary

Get it off your chest.

Richard Wisz Media Services

Mad_mardy
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I never use raid just individual drives and one ide bus on a removable interal caddy

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GG
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Joined: Mar 16 2002

Unlucky m8.

We use dozens of RAID arrays here. 99% are hardware RAID, when a disk fails, just bash in a new one and leave it to rebuild.

Only twice in 6 years have I had an array that croaked completely after a disk failed.
This is a far better solution than all the times I have had to try and recover the contents from a PC with a failing drive, which often took a long time and was sometimes unsuccessful.

I must admit though good RAID software is a must otherwise you are wasting your time, and there is plenty of rubbish out there.

BSOD - a truly unique Microsoft innovation!

harlequin
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It is hardware .... a promise FASTtrak100 card , not cheap .......

Gary MacKenzie

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GG
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:(

Hope you get it sorted Gary.

BSOD - a truly unique Microsoft innovation!

harlequin
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rebuilt in 2hours .... and 'appears' to be stable.
switched off overnight and started again tomorrow will prove/disprove this of course.

Gary MacKenzie

sepulce@hotmail.com ( an account only used for forum messages )

Thinkserver TS140 , 750ti Graphics card  & LG 27" uws led backlight , Edius 8

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harlequin
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Ok , back to the start again.

my nice new 2 x 2x250GB raid 1 , has decided that one of the drives is beyond fixing.

so a few questions

1. anyone here still using raid for video ?
2. anyone finding it works properly , or am i just unlucky ?

I am seriously thinking i'll just go for 4 x 250gb setup , and save files manually twice , in case it's the raid mirroring that is faulty ...... i.e. get rid of raid functionality and just use the drives as individual drives.

Gary MacKenzie

sepulce@hotmail.com ( an account only used for forum messages )

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Unicorn
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I don't think RAID is that important anymore unless you're editing low-compression HD (or maybe uncompressed SD): access time is a bigger issue than raw throughput for most other uses (e.g. being able to read four DV streams off disk at once for picture-in-picture effects).

Certainly I've been editing 185Mbps HD files on a bog-standard 7200 rpm SATA drive with no real problems and limited use of realtime effects.

P4-3.06/2GB RAM/2500GB IDE/SATA. Avid Media Composer, Liquid Edition, Premiere 6, Lightwave, Vue 6, eyeon Fusion 5. DV and HDV editing/compositing.

PaulD
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GG wrote:
We use dozens of RAID arrays here. 99% are hardware RAID, when a disk fails, just bash in a new one and leave it to rebuild.

Hi
I would guess you are using RAID 5, with lots of disks in the array.
The video editors I know using RAID use this, though maybe more often the are using RAID 50 - thats two groups of RAID 5 striped with RAID 0 to give added speed.

Big server boxes, like the Apple XServe RAID, with 14 drives and two (fibre) channels is ideal for this (in a broadcast editing environment with broadcast-level budgets ;) ).

At a more realistic level the FireWire 800 striped boxes by people like LaCie or G-Tech are being used, but people who work at this level all work with timecode batch capturing workflows, so could recapture if a disk goes down...

Me, editing DV projects (but capturing from DigiBeta/Beta SP sources)? I gave up RAID when I gave up SCSI. For precisely the reason you've just experienced ;)

GG
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PaulD wrote:
Hi
I would guess you are using RAID 5, with lots of disks in the array.

At a more realistic level the FireWire 800 striped boxes by people like LaCie or G-Tech

Yes to first bit on most servers.

However we do have quite a few LaCie Bigger disk's or whatever they are called, the 1TB ones and after a bit of a dodgy start, they have been quite reliable. Mainly used on Avid systems.

The main Avid unity system uses JBOD's, these don't really have any safety net. If a disk goes down you lose the workspace associated with that BOD. Been very reliable though.

Gary, maybe its a heat problem. Those big 250GB drives produce lots of heat. The colder you can make them run the more reliable they are, I mean lots of air flow.

We had some RAID cases a couple of years ago that would have a drive fail about once or twice a month. Since we binned those cases and fitted new ones, moving the drives from the old cases, from memory I think we have only had one drive fail. The new cases have very powerful fans on the back, serious air flow.

BSOD - a truly unique Microsoft innovation!

harlequin
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It could be temperature , but this is a big server case , 19" rackmount capable , ....... major duty fans on rear plus psu and massive ones on the twin xeons.

I could understand it happening in summer , but these days .......

I'll open it up in the morning ..... i was way too hacked off to do it today , and see if the airflow can be improved.

Gary MacKenzie

sepulce@hotmail.com ( an account only used for forum messages )

Thinkserver TS140 , 750ti Graphics card  & LG 27" uws led backlight , Edius 8

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Alan Roberts
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Gary, temperature may, indeed be the problem. Hard drives fail pretty swiftly when they get hot. I know of one professional setup, where the owner had specifed a long chain or set of chains of LaCie drives, because he'd been told they're good. After a few weeks, he started rejecting drives in droves. On inspection, the answer was obvious, he'd stacked them about 10 high, and you could fry eggs on the ones in the middle. The logical way to use them is edge on, like a bookshelf.

I used to run a Promise array of 25G drives when I started video editing and had no problems, so I don't really expect it to be the RAID hardware that's doing it. But, as has been sadi, there's a lot of rubbish out there. I know of one film production house that edits on an array of 36 3GHz PCs and 18TB of drives in arrays (it's the only way they can do the jobs in time), but they use custom software to operate the systems (each PC runs UNIX) and they wouldn't tell me what they use so I guess it was in-house stuff.

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harlequin
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If it is heat , it's a pain.
I can't do much except remove two drives , and leave spaces between the remaining two , but system was built with 4 drives and should run with 4 , the heating/cooling should have had major tollerance levels built in.

I'll fire system up in the morning , and if drive is still dead , it can't purely be heat as it is the lowest drive , by my calculation that has failed , where hottest would tend to be either middle or top ( since heat rises. )
these are 3 1/2 " drives in 5 1/4" removeable trays so drives not right on top of each other , each a standard 5 1/4" slot apart.

Gary MacKenzie

sepulce@hotmail.com ( an account only used for forum messages )

Thinkserver TS140 , 750ti Graphics card  & LG 27" uws led backlight , Edius 8

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Alan Roberts
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Then I guess you're right, it's probably not heat, or not only heat.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

rhett7660
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Joined: Jan 28 2006

I had a raid 0 setup on my system. Once it went down I found out how much it would cost to get the info.... I was done with raid. I now have 4 hard drives that I save to on my server.... Kind of a pain, but I have it setup for back up to each drive every night.... If one goes out I have it on the other three..... That is all I use them for...

Sorry to hear your luck... I won't go back to raid... to much time and hassle trying to get the info and down time.......

R~

Barry Hunter
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Joined: Nov 30 2001

Just noticed this thread! sorry to hear of your woes re "Raid"

Both of our main edit suites run on Raid 0, the older one has removable drives, 4 prs off, 2 are 40gig each & the other 80gig each. That system is about 21/2 years old. The newer, 14 months old has 2 x Sata 250gig drives hard wired in. Both use Fastrack 100 Taid controler card.

Occasionally, on the older system, on boot up, I get the "Problem with Raid" one line flashing up, so it`s ctrl F to get into Raid, Esc twice & it re-boots fine.

I`m not going to make the dangerous statement on reliabillity, But!!!

Both systems were built for me by Tritech!

I also have LE running on an HP Pavillion zd8000 with a Maxtor OneTouch 200gig external with no obvious probs there.

Sorry I can`t help further!

Barry Hunter videos4all.org

Vimeous
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Joined: Mar 10 2006

Nothing wrong with RAID.

My general thinking:

1. Only use RAID 0 for scratch space. It's there for speed and not redundancy. If any disks fails it's rebuild from-scratch time.

2. RAID 1 will give you local data redundancy but unless you have a particularily efficient controller card it may slow your editing down slightly when reading (write should be fine). N+1 so only survive one disk failure.

3. RAID 5. Popular becuase you only loose one disk of data space and still achieve N+1 redundancy. Some cheaper controllers (particularily onboard desktop PC's) don't support it. Same speed issues as RAID 1 although again entirely dependant on the RAID controller.

4. RAID + Speed = x + 0 ( 0 + 1; 10; 50 etc)
Double-up your RAID 1 or 5 and stripe the two sets. As some of you mention it gives some level of redundancy (N+1 usually unless you're very lucky) while keeping the speed benefit of striping.

If you have no alternative backup solution RAID 1 or 5 are a must. Recapturing footage and rebuilding the core system takes alot of time. Even if a RAID rebuild takes hours you'll be back in the position you were before the failure. A total system rebuild may be completely different (missing programs etc that could take days to even notice) even if the re-captured data is the same, not to mention any WIP that'd be lost.

Besides while the rebuild is happening you can be sourcing replacement drives for those that have failed and having copious flasks of weak-lemon drink!

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