I need to get more laughs...

I'd have thought that a mic placed either near the front facing the audience, or even just near a rear camera, but pointed off axis so you miss out on as much of the PA as poss would give a mostly audience heavy recording?

A man walked into a pub.....

OK, I'll get me coat!

As you know, I'm no sound engineer Mark. Many people here are but here's a tale.
Back in the 70's when we recorded audience shows in Studio 1 at Teddington (400+people) the camera dept would sling 7 video monitors over the audience for them to view the recording and the sound dept would sling 7 mics between the monitors for audience reaction. Reaction from the audience in the studio was always good, Tommy Cooper, Benny Hill etc. new how to get laughs but they were never the same laughs that I heard at home watching the TX. The sound supervisors told me that canned laughter (+ a bit of natural) was the best way to control laughter, as required by the director, and that they would arrange for the warm-up artist to provide them with the required variety of "laughter types" for the show.
So maybe you could build up your own "laughter library" from these venues so that you have slightly more control over the "live" aspect of the audience.
Cue the Sound Supervisors..

Yup and I have all the hundreds of teddington laugh tracks/applause on my pro tools system as recorded by Richard Churchill, Paul Gartrell and Dick Bradford etc from all sorts of programmes such as men behaving badly and last of the summer wine.

Most comedy shows are enhanced in post prod but getting as much on the night can be a good starting point and putting a mic at the front pointing away from the stage would be a good start, you also need to know how to compress audience reaction so that it makes a good bed and sounds natural without too much PA system colouration.

But hey what would I know I am so behind the times with modern day editing systems that maybe the noo media guys know better how to re-invent the comedy laff track wheels!:D

I sort of thought that would turn up, given time, but hey it made me laugh :)

In the future if you could please laugh in the direction of the camera as that is where the mic has been placed and there is no budget for sound dubbing these days!:D

I had the pleasure of witnessing the laugh track being recorded for the ser of last of the summer wine I did in 1996, they had most of the cast members in the studio and to see Stephen Lewis (Blakey) acting as the studio janitor and highlighting with his broom the microphones above the audiences heads in studio 1 teddington had us all in stitches.

I also had to make and dub Ed Byrne funny for his first TV appearance on Des O'Connor tonite as the geriatric audience in the afternoon record were half asleep and just didn't get his accent or humour!

Interesting to hear modern day sit coms and how they are just so badly dubbed as they are just not funny to start with and no doubt the noo mediah graduates editing/dubbing them have never witnessed the real deal, one exception is Miranda where you can hear that they just haven't had to add very much at all as like last of the summer wine it is written and edited to leave room for the laughs.......such fun!!!

Gary, why do you have such a big chip on your shoulder about "noo mediah graduates". That's about the hundredth time you've cast aspersions about them. What's it about?

No chip it's just I meet them and get enquiries from them all the time, they want a RED camera for nothing, they know everything as they have a media degree, they can't understand why they can't get a job in telly as they have no experience, they wonder why they have to work for nothing just to get experience, they wonder why companies don't pay them huge salaries and make them directors instantly, they have a 5D so are a fully qualified DOP, they can operate a piece of software so are a fully fledged editor, they made film at college s now are fully qualified to work on feature films, they know all about full HD as the Z1 was a good learning curve, they complain that they learned nothing in the three years they were at college, their mates work on the x-factor so are doing really well, they wonder why after working for Endemol for three years they have not progressed any further up the ladder, everything needs to be shot 24p as that is cinematic, they put mic's on the camera and wonder why the sound is no good, they think that everything that has happened in the past is not required in this noo media age, the are not prepared to listen or learn, they have no sense of humour, wobbly cam is good as that is used in the movies they like, searching for focus and shallow DOF is the only style for shooting earthy films, etc etc etc! :D

But all the good ones I can spot in mins, I have worked and invested time with some really talented people who are prepared to listen and learn, one of them is currently in New York as production manager for Discovery and several others have paid me the compliment of saying they learned more with me in a week than they did in three years at uni, it's not their fault just the shallow dreams that they are being sold to keep the unemployment figures down by the last government, get a job in noo mediah, yea right now show me where the jobs are for these poor souls!

Now back to the thread you started about your poor audience camera sound, one other option is to rig a sep recorder at the front of the auditorium so that you have all the reaction to add in the edit/dub!

On Queen live magic at wembley, U2 at red rocks and the Stones in Barcelona we rigged two sennheiser 816 mics above the PA system left and right and ran a timecode DAT machine to get all the audience reaction, we also put a compressor on the feed so that the levels looked after themselves, we then grabbed several sections that were good and used them to add applause and cheering in the dub over the edit points inbetween each track that was mixed without the reaction to keep it clean.

Oh and for the tosser in charge of Noo Mediah at Teeside Uni, that is why old duffers like me can teach people with anecdotes, it's coz we have actually done the job and got the t-shirt in the first place, now tutors and the ones who run the noo mediah courses, don't get me started on them as I really do have a lot to say about their attitude!

As for a recorder the zoom and tascam ones are good value but it also can be done with ext mics and a recorder on small budgets.

I have used these sony M/S mics for lots of location stereo recordings into a mini disc recorder, mini disc is good for these sort of applications as they compress the audio during recording and can make it sound quite good straight away.

An M/S mic can also be good for things such as an audience as they enable you to adjust the width of the audio image and give a smooth stereo soundfield.

I use two in my std kit the lower priced ECM 907: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-ECMMS907-CE7-Microphone/dp/B00005QBUW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308817144&sr=8-1

And the better quality ECM 957: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-ECMMS957-Digital-Microphone-variable/dp/B00005QBUV/ref=sr_1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308817202&sr=1-1-catcorr

I also use the 957 as a general M/S stereo mic as it has a 5 pin XLR so can be rigged and run on longer leads back to tracks 3+4 on my camera.
I did most of the stereo wild tracks and non sync recordings for sound effects on The Bill with the 957 hooked up to a sony mini disc recorder.

P.S the sony 907 is an ideal upgrade mic for small cameras such as the canon HF11 etc as it is small, battery powered, gives a nice M/S stereo image that can be adjusted and can be used off camera to get closer to the action, best put a decent foam wind shield on it though and a suspension mount to isolate it from handling noise.

Jeez, Gary, that's just students and new graduates the world over! The arrogance and self-belief of youth. Some don't know they're born, others understand the need to learn. Some graduate with a huge self belief and no talent and go on to make millions, others graduate with great talent that they'll never fulfil because of their personalities. Some talent will rise to the top, some **** will drop to the bottom, but there'll always be floaters.

I teach on several university course in the performing arts, and I see exactly the same with my students. Some are great, others will never make it. I don't discriminate in my support. They all deserve it.

However, the industry is changing very very rapidly, and yesterday's skills are not necessarily tomorrow's. Except perhaps in your own field of sound recording. You can see that in Skillset's Sector Skills Analysis. And don't forget that the "industry" encompasses all that New Media. Do you know what the games market alone is worth? It's huge.
http://www.skillset.org/uk/england/industries/article_8308_1.asp
It's enlightening to read the full assessment.

ANYHOW, thank you very much for your good advice regarding the sound recording.
That's interesting that you think of the ECM957 as a Pro level mic. I already have a Zoom H4, which has an inbuilt compressor, so I think I'll give that set-up a go next week.

Yes I know about the games market as it's just about the only new media industry that is strong in the north east, they are always struggling to get sound designers and people to do that aspect but I keep well away and leave that to the graduates who wish to enter that new market.

I am old skool TV anyway so british drama is about my limits these days as it is gentle and relaxing to do on camera and sound.

Main problem I do find though is that the new media world (and some mainstream broadcast) want things done for low cost and the majority of graduates seem to still expect to get the full old skool industry rates straight away.
My own daily rates are the same now as ten years ago but with increased costs so it is more about finding lower cost solutions in buying kit.

Yes the ECM mikes from sony may be prosumer but they are excellent value for true M/S mics, they are perfectly acceptable and I have used them for nearly 15 years now on all sorts of mainstream broadcast TV and films. Your H4 should be fine and try it at the front to pick up some cleaner audience reaction that you can add in post prod, it's all about cheats and finding what works to hide all the edits!

Will start a new thread to show the kit that I was using on a live OB last week to show that it doesn't all have to be expensive kit in the pro world of audio.

Got it in one Garry....
Us who actually leart the ropes the hard way, well, what would we know?

I was actually asked last week if I had my pro tools certificate so I could work on a project, I pointed out my 30 years experience in audio and how I helped design the AMS Neve AufioFile in the early 90's that all modern non linear audio recorders are based on, it fell on deaf ears as the post production co-ordinator (secretary) didn't seem to understand me.

I am tempted to get one of the five year olds at the local primary school to make me a pro tools certificate so I can e-mail it to them!:D

What about a radio mike to one member of the audience?

THe trouble with that (apart from the possibility of losing the mic) is that it will be very heavy on that member's laugh. You need a more distant overall cover that doesn't pick up a single "voice" ( as if you do, they're bound to have a really weird annoying laugh)

It's an idea, but I think it would just make that one person's laughter very prominent and the overall track would sound weird. And I think it'd have some of the same directional issues that I have with on-camera mics.

What about looping the sound one has on a multi track?

Gary, this is very useful.
The ECM-MS987 has a five pin XLR connection. Any ideas on where I can pick up a five-pin female to 2 x 3pin XLR lead quickly and easily? Can't find one at Farnell, Keene, StudioSpares.... I could make one up but I'm $hit at soldering!
Thanks
Mark

Not to worry, found one at Canford:
http://www.canford.co.uk/Products/38-088_CANFORD-CABLE-5FX-2x3MX-HST-R-M-350mm-Black

ECMS-957 is a great prosumer mic and I am amazed that more people don't use them as it is a far superior to an rode videomic etc being true M/S, one other advantage is that you can rotate the capsule assembly.

Use mine all the time as my main stereo mic and have it mounted in a rode shock mount with a dead rat over the stock foam wind gag.