Author Topic: Wedding Video's
SVS
Member posted 30 October 1999 12:10
I am thinking seriously about starting to do wedding videos. I have decided this after viewing footage shot by several of the local so called pro’s, the footage leaves a lot to be desired, they shoot everything with one camera, constantly panning and zooming and the effect of the straight cuts while the wedding bells are ringing is audibly appalling.
I do not profess to be a pro. Up to know this has been a hobby, I video my daughters dance school shows as well as other things. This year we are selling copies of the show as requested by the proprietor because last year I circulated copies of the show & we were inundated with people wanting to buy copies.
I shoot with three cameras the first is an 8mm Sony and two Hi8 Canons, The Sony and one Canon are left at wide angle recording the whole stage area, the second Canon is used for the close-up shots. I edit primarily from the two Hi band machines, the Sony is used as a fall back (or backup) incase of problems. My footage is digitized with a Miro DC30+ and from Christmas (thanks to Santa) will be output to SVHS.
My Question is simple; I would like to know roughly how much you people that do this sort of work would charge. This is only to give me an idea of the viability of this project, bearing in mind that all my initial earnings will be going towards upgrading the cameras to 3CCD digital models and then upgrading the rest of the setup.
I am not interested in making a quick kill, as some of the people around here seem to do, I am looking to build a business and a future for myself by doing something that I really enjoy. I am looking for totally anonymous responses and any feedback would be well appreciated. Thanks.
foxvideo
Member posted 30 October 1999 19:44
Short answer - Forget it.
I would suggest that you have not really seen any professional wedding videos, just those produced by "Saturday Cowboys" calling themselves professionals and who probably have another job Monday to Friday!
A true professional can make a wedding look as though it has been shot multi-camera when shot on just one camera (it comes with practice and much editing!)
If you "do not profess to be a pro" how can you justify offering a professional service ie: a bride paying you to produce a video?
To earn money ie: become professional, requires more than a desire to shoot wedding videos just because someone liked a dance school show you produced.
It sounds very easy to set up several cameras, a main, a wide and a backup, but Hi8 and Video8? have you not heard that digital arrived over three years ago? These days Any bride paying the price you will have to charge using three cameras and editing on such a slow system would at least expect digital quality.
Lets face it, to be commercially viable you would have to charge around £600/£800 for the hours worked - around 8 to 10 hours on the day, if you do the brides house and the first dance, and how many hours editing - lets say between 15 to 20 - thats 30 hours work at around £20 per hour not including overheads like tape costs, wear and tear on equipment, transport and most important insurance - both public liability in case someone trips over a cable..... and indemnity insurance in case the worst happens and your master get chewed up in editing etc. Very few brides will actually pay more than around £3/400 for a wedding and that is why so many poor quality wedding videos are produced. If you want to be better than the rest, get yourself a bank loan, junk the Hi8, charge around £1000 a time and don't give up the day job yet.
We gave up wedding videos 3 years ago, (We won the 1996 Association of Professional Videomakers Best Wedding Demo Award, so I do feel qualified to comment), give me the commercial market any day of the week!
No doubt this post will open up a hornets nest, so lets keep it clean, and let battle commence.....
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Chrome
Contributor posted 30 October 1999 20:42
I agree with Fox... there's a hell of a difference between doing 'it' for a freind, one of the family, small event etc. and a wedding. Let's face it, a wedding is probably the bride (and usually groom's) most important day of their lives, the pressure is really on for the photographer/videographer. This is not a repeatable event. In the early eighties I was an apprentice photographer and cameraman, and covered quite a few weddings as both assistant and principle photographer. If you think the Bride & Groom go through a stressful time, you should try being the Photographer, you are expected to be everywhere and capture everything. Eg: Leave the Church (Reg. Office) after the Bride & G., yet be at the reception to record their arrival before them, which often means breaking a number of laws in order to get there and parked before they arrive.
I got out of it and went into commercial work (which can often be re-shot after a disaster), and if you take my advice steer well clear of this area.
Anyway whatever you decide - good luck
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Image F/X
Contributor posted 31 October 1999 12:53
I realy hate being an also. But the thing that hasn't been said yet is also the mental presure that you find your self under doing wedding videos. Take it from me the easy option is kids parties but the work is very thin on the ground. The best way get work in this field is word of mouth, but it takes a long time to build up.
I do wish you luck, regards Lou
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Charles
Contributor posted 31 October 1999 09:44
I've only done one wedding video and that was my son's,that was enough i'l edit them till the cows come home but video them no thanks. However someone has to do them otherwise there wouldn't be any wedding video's. If you feel comfortable with doing a wedding video find someone you know and offer to do it as a present,get the reaction and then go from there because in the end if you don't try you will always wonder WHAT IF !!!! Best of Luck
Charles
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SVS
Member posted 31 October 1999 10:18
Come on you lot.
I appreciate the time and effort your taking to respond but before you do, make sure you have understood just what you are responding to.
FOX VIDEO I hold a lot of respect for but what’s all the harsh stuff about “have you not
Heard that digital arrived over three years ago?†after all I did say, “My initial earnings will be going towards upgrading the cameras to 3CCD digital models and then upgrading the rest of the setupâ€.
I must also apologies on two counts because I did not make clear that I intended upgrading the cameras prior to doing any wedding stuff, I also didn’t mean to insult the professionals out there, after all why would I post a notice like this if I didn’t respect the people that would be providing feedback.
You’re all right about the cowboys that call themselves professional; they are the ones that we have an abundance of in this part of the country. They are the ones that dominate the market here, which leaves the all-important BRIDE with little choice. Indeed it was after seeing my cousin’s new ‘PROFESSIONAL’ wedding video that I decided to stop thinking and start acting.
I know that I can produce better quality than what is around at the moment (being in the countryside we don’t have to many real professionals about), I know that the BRIDE deserves better. Most importantly I know that I have a lot to learn and that I am a long way off being professional but everyone has to start somewhere.
CHROME I understand you advising me to stay clear because of all the pressure and all that but would you have been in a position to do “commercial work†if you had not first built up a business base (and a lot of valuable experience) in shooting weddings.
Please lets have a little more constructive stuff, a bit of positive thinking for a fellow enthusiast.
By the way just because I am not a pro doesn’t mean that I’m new to the game, I started Digitizing when Spea launched the Crunchit, I’ve used my time to gain experience constantly learning and improving along the way. The only thing that has stopped me going semiprofessional was my lack of quality equipment.
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SVS
Member posted 31 October 1999 10:26
CHARLES
Thanks for that. When I have the necessary cameras I was thinking of offering to do a couple of freebies for promotional purposes, I thought I could offer my service to a couple of couples that weren’t necessarily in a position to hire someone.
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allan
Contributor posted 31 October 1999 11:04
Yes alot of the negative comments are right-on and yes, the first two or three weddings are quite nerve wracking, but then they start to get easier and you actually look forward to your next shoot BUT... just before, the butterflies are always there and I think these only serve to keep you on the ball and concentrating...as you should never become complacent.
I too was like you, unimpressed by the award winning "pros" and so starting with a freebie for a friend, I dived straight in and have never looked back, recently filming my 100th wedding video, and I have a pile of testimonial thank-you letters from Brides and mothers.
My advice...yes there are lots of cowboys and yes many competing "pros" but the "Blair witch project" shows that you dont have to have the equipment of "Industrial Light and Magic" to get results. The gear you have mentioned is fine. Remember, What will get you plenty of work, is WORD OF MOUTH and a damn good DEMO TAPE.
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SVS
Member posted 31 October 1999 14:08
Thanks for that.
Keep them comming.
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ORBITOR
Member posted 31 October 1999 23:59
So you whant some possitive advice, well firstly start acting as a profeesional! Employ the services of a socond and competant cameraman before you start filming your first wedding. I will not shoot one camera weddings any more they are a pain to edit and you need eyes in the back of your head not to miss the best bits of action. Buy yourself a GOOD radio mike to record the speaches, I try to put a radio mike on the groom tucked behind his lapel flower, it makes recording the all important vows a doddle.Before you start to film any weddings go along to a few weddings to try to understand were you will need to be to get the best shots, as I have seen cameramen stand on the brides side of the ceromony only to be faced with the back of her head as she gives her vows not a good move. Last and very impotant point buy a good rain cover for the camera is a must as you know Mr Murphy is alive and well!
Good Luck and upgrade to digital cameras and Digital editing before you start.
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dom2002
Contributor posted 01 November 1999
In 1997 I arrived on a small thai island with a video 8 camera and a Clunky sony underwater video housing. The one resident videographer announced that he was a pro ( he was earning money ) and that my equipment was not up to the job ( come on boys, you know what to do if your equipment is inferior ). Three months later I was the only videographer, and my German friend ( we did become friends...I think he needed the advice ! ) was left with his equipment hanging a little limply. I know I am not talking wedding videos ( I think you are very brave to attempt them ) but the problems were similar. I had to, with one camera, and no editing gear, create seamless videos. I had to be the first on the boat filming the arrival, film people setting gear up, set my own gear up, then be the first in the water to capture them jumping in etc etc. Like SVS I had only good reports, and in the end it is the result that counts, not the equipment. It sounds like SVS is getting it togethor but also has a love for the job, and thats what counts. Dom.
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tom hardwick
Contributor posted 01 November 1999
Maybe this should go into the "Techniques" section, but the thread here supports it. If you're determined to shoot weddings then tom's top ten tips might be good stuck on your fridge door...
Quickie advice for those about to embark on shooting their first wedding video singlehanded. In no particular order, here's tom's top ten tips.
1.If at all possible visit the location beforehand to assess the layout, lighting, powerpoints for recharging and to be nice to the priest/officials. Check out
the parking access to enable a quick getaway from house to church to reception. See 7) below.
2.Have a checklist for the Big Day, so you don't forget a single thing. Don't use new untried kit on the day.
3.When shooting, shoot lots. Remember, this day will never come again. Much easier to edit down your master tapes than to lengthen them.
4.Dance on your toes. Stay very alert. Concentrate on keeping the camera still (unless you're adept at tracking). Get big powerful closeups. Shoot
people, all the people. A bit of the location, but go back and shoot more people. Remember we're all here because people like looking at people.
5.Check over your kit very carefully. Check whitebalance, exposure, focus settings are all as you require, and are happy with.
6.Check with the bride if she's asked you to do this film. Ask exactly what she'd like you to record. I had one bride who insisted that I never let the
camera stop even for a second. They called me one-shot tom for months afterwards.
7.Try to be in two places at once. (see 4 above). Wear unobtrusive clothing, take a brave pill and move amongst the guests, filming and smiling graciously.
8.Decline alcohol (difficult one this) as drinking time is lost filming time. You can't do 2 things well, so concentrate on getting the footage. Don't be
tempted to shoot stills; it requires a different mind set.
9.Edit ruthlessly, you hear me? Keep the original masters for sure, but if possible get the happy couple to see your edited masterpiece before they see
the long version.
10.Remember your video camera is a sound recorder that just happens to record pictures at the same time. If you stop recording mid sentence the
conversation (and therefore the shot) will be nonsense wheras the pictures may be fine.
tom.
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foxvideo
Member posted 03 November 1999 07:21
Well I must say that I am very disappointed, I was at least expecting a good 'bun fight' and all we got were a few squibs.
Not one person from a subscribtion of 1337 members has actually answered SVS's original question, "how much to charge?', could it be that most members who "do weddings" are Saturday Specials - Have no professional qualifications, use auto-focus, dont have all the correct insurances (including car use for business and especially Public Liability), use chart music without paying any royalties (yes Dave R. of South Wales that means you!) and are afraid to actually reply?
SVS, there still seems to be some contradiction here, you say "My initial earnings will be going towards upgrading the cameras to 3CCD digital models and then upgrading the rest of the setup. I must also apologies on two counts because I did not make clear that I intended upgrading the cameras prior to doing any wedding stuff".
You say your 'initial earnings' will go toward upgrading the cameras to 3CCD in one para, and then that you intend to upgrade prior to doing any weddings in another - does this mean using Hi8 and Vid8 for weddings to get your initial earnings, or do you mean other video jobs to get those earnings? - Confusing!
One point to note here, if you are using multiple cameras and if you're sensible, separate "off camera" matched mikes, will you have enough time to de-rig three cameras, tripods and mikes and get the outside shots before the bride leaves for the reception?
It would also seem to me, if you are going to offer to do a few 'freebies', and you live in the country, that there will not be too many weddings a year to earn money from, even assuming you get them all.
You also say, "By the way just because I am not a pro doesn’t mean that I’m new to the game, I started Digitizing when Spea launched the Crunchit, I’ve used my time to gain experience constantly learning and improving along the way. The only thing that has stopped me going semiprofessional was my lack of quality equipment" - If you have been around that long and have not yet managed to earn enough to upgrade your equipment by now, do you think a few weddings a year will help?
I don't intend to put you down at all, it's just that over the past 10 years we have seen many people come and go, many have invested their redundancy money, life savings or a bank loan just because they thought they could make their hobby pay. It is one thing to 'do video' as a hobby, it's totally different trying to make a living from it, there will always be a 'cowboy' with little or no morals in business, with sub-standard kit, willing to undercut you and then run, never to be seen again, after all, he's got his money from the bride, what does he care? You will also find that when a hobby becomes a job it loses the fun and interest of being a hobby and you then have to look to something else for relaxation.
Having run a post production facility for the past 8 years, we have seen them all, the good weddings, the bad and the absolutly terrible, (we even know of one person who films on VHS for 3 hours, takes the tape out of the camera, presents it to the Bride and Groom at the top table and gets his £300 there and then.) It is a very sad fact to us that those producing the best weddings very seldom seem to make good profits but those producing the poor quality weddings do very nicely thank you, because their investment is low. We spend many hours discussing this with people who come on our training courses, and as yet we have not found the answer. It would now seem that one possible way to make money from weddings is the trend toward a national company offering wedding videos and giving freelance operators the filming only for a set fee and the setting up of francishes for that company. (This kind of set-up has provided good income for many Photographers for years.) There are two trains of thought about this, some videographers are glad of the income without the hassle of marketing and editing while others have told us they fear they will lose income due to the power of national advertising with the launch of a 'brand name' and that they will now only get a flat fee rather than the full amount they would have got, we shall watch this development with interest.
To answer your original question, prices vary throughout the UK with the average seeming to be around the £350 mark. It is not uncommon to charge £800/£1000 or more in London or any of the other big cities for a full coverage, high quality format wedding but this tails off to around £300 for rural areas and we know of some 'Saturday Operators' who are quite happy to charge under £100, (quite unbelivable when you consider most wedding photographers charge £800+ whichever area they are in, and the Bride will accept this with no questions! Weddings of different cultures have to be quoted for outside of these figures, some weddings go on into the early hours others for up to 3 days, and the couple want it all filmed!
You now have to be very flexible in 'style', there is a growing trend to the 'dream' style of wedding coverage rather than the docu' style, using slomo's, black & white/sepia and multi-layer images, once seen this then becomes the brides request, much in the same way super-imposition caught on in wedding photography, this can add considerably to the time spent in the edit suite, so costs go up.
My almost final tip is get 'professional indemnity insurance'. It is now becoming accepted in the UK to sue if a wedding video is not up to standard or something goes wrong like the dress looks 'pinkish', a common problem with non pro cameras especially SVHS and Hi8. This is common practice in the States, and like all things from the States is finding it's way over here now. In one case in the UK, the bride had costs awarded of over £5k to re-run the wedding because the "professional" video was not up to the standard expected, insurance would have covered this.(You could risk losing your house etc if you dont have it.)
If you still intend to pursue this, I would suggest Orbitor has the best advice, use a second cameraman experienced in wedding work (although this will put your costs up and cut your profit), who can teach you the tricks of the trade, after all there is more to a wedding than the actual filming, (the tip about which side to film from is one of the best and a hard lesson learned if you get it wrong - even the Beeb got it wrong recently in a docu-soap, showing just the back of the brides head as she faced the groom!), As for UK training courses, I dont know of any that currently use an actual wedding, most use other members on the course to 'act' as the couple, and you only get to try a few set-up shots along with the use of a DSR300 for five minutes, the rest of the training is theory and watching other peoples videos as examples of 'how to' and 'what not to'. You will also find that guests will ask your advice like "which side do I pin my button-hole?, and a hundred other questions, just because they think you have attended many weddings and know the procedures.
As I said, I've no intention to put you down, just letting you know what you're getting into (We normally charge for this advice on our training courses!)
Good luck and if you do go ahead, email us direct if you feel we can offer any advice.
Regards
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Dave Farrants
Producer/Editor (Preditor?)
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Gavin Gration
Member posted 03 November 1999 19:47
If you want to make a start in this business weddings are a fairly easy target, a cheap video man will do for lots of people. The customers will mess you about till the cows come home and probably won`t buy any extra copies, but at least it`s £150.00 towards a new camera.
Filming weddings and events for relatives is good practice, when you think your good enough submit a film for appraisal with a professional body, I did.
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Chrome
Contributor posted 03 November 1999
If you're still determined, the best advice I think I can offer (used to be a pro.) is ensure you have a backup for everything, this is the most basic insurance you can get. The most important of these (after film and cameras ) is batteries - buy the very best you can afford as backups, then buy backups for your backups. The day before the event (leaving enough time for a dash to the shop) double-check everything is working, then double-check it again.
Fox's advice is Solid Gold and I couldn't agree more... however I just had to add this.
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SVS
Member posted 04 November 1999 12:24
Tom Hardwick thanks a lot I’ve got some good tips from your list that I will include in my own. I keep finding really worthwhile things in both the positive and negative feedback it’s all well appreciated.
I have been thinking of radio mikes (as the Orbitor suggested) but I have also been thinking of radio communication with headsets (to keep in touch with my assistant of the day), I wondered if there was risk of them interfering with each other?
Dave (of Foxvideo) your right on two counts, one yes I did seem to contradict myself on the upgrading issue but then you went on to answerer the confusion yourself because I intend to profit from a couple of dance shows and school plays during the winter, this was going to give me a financial boost to help me purchase a couple of digital cameras (but only single CCD models at the moment), these would give me the starting equipment that is holding me back at the moment, as soon as I can afford a serious model the first two digitals will become cameras two and three for the three camera setup. (I may be moving slow but I own all my equipment and have no debt’s).
I have never intended to do all the running around like a mad man, although in reality I am a while away from starting the serious stuff, I am already lining up assistants to fetch and carry and an experienced camera man to assist in relocation’s etc without having to rushing around like idiots (he used to do weddings himself, his camera work is fine but he’s not to creative).
Why does it take people time to buy things? Why has it taken me so long? Well! Try not to laugh too much but as I have said, this all started as a hobby and as you are well aware this equipment is not cheap. We couldn’t really afford much when I first started messing with video and I could already see how expensive everything was so I took the decision to pack up smoking and I saved my money up for an Amiga A1200 (they were new at the time) and then a Lola Genlock, from then I have continued to use my so called smoking money as my budget for this equipment which has gone through many incarnations, the trouble is that you often find your self chasing your own tail and upgrading takes forever.
Up until now I haven’t wanted to sell tapes, its only after looking at tapes that people are paying hundreds of pounds for (curtsey of the cowboys) and realizing that these so called local pros aren’t that good.
By the way being in the country were not an isolated village, I’m in West Cumbria we have an abundance of scattered towns but the nearest city is Carlisle (an hour by road or decrepit rail), there are plenty of weddings to keep me and the cowboys going. My ‘country’ reference was aimed at the fact that serious pro’s are usually in or near cities where there is commercial video work to provide employment in the industry.
I have a serious job on shifts for a large company, I really don’t like my job and I’m not to keen on shifts. My ideal situation would be one where I can buildup a business (yes it will be hard work doing both) and only if it becomes stable enough, I would surrender my serious shift job for a less serious day job. One day I hope to be in a position to quit working for the company and take this up full time.
If videoing is going to be profitable enough to be a main source of income for me, surely it will provide enough surplus cash (as a second income) to allow me to pay off my mortgage in a few short years. If that is the case then that will be the time to give up the day job. Five years could see me with a new life; I am now making moves to make that happen.
I will take out insurance prior to starting weddings; I can also see that the hardest job is going to be the marketing side of it.
Once I get some promotional stuff I can let my work speak for itself, if that doesn’t get me work, I should take the hint and have a serious rethink.
Thanks all
Steve
PS I like the smilies Chrome, they brighten up a dull screen.
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foxvideo
Member posted 04 November 1999 07:02
Go for it, your enthusiasm has got the better of me!
If we can offer any practical advice mail us.....!
(ps. as for the 2 way comms with headsets - not a good idea, you will need to wear pro, closed back headphones all day).
pps. - my last word, honest. just arrived in todays post, a copy of the IOV mag 'Focus', November issue (Sue is a Master Member), SVS, suggest you get hold a a copy, there is an interesting letter and article that you should read
regards
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Dave Farrants
Producer/Editor (Preditor?)
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Paul Knox
Member posted 04 November 1999 13:47
Hi SVS and Thread Runners
Well that has opened a rather spiralling can of worms hasn’t it, I must say I disagree with fox videos comments on having to go digital to get acceptable quality, this is a rather bizarre statement to make when you think about it, a good hi-8 video camera can produce perfectly acceptable results for semi-pro work in this field, I agree when you do decide to go pro you may consider the digital alternative but you really must look at the costs and the flexibility of the hardware that is around at the moment for producing full PAL wedding videos, remember that an average wedding video may last 90 minutes have you considered even with timeline playback just how much storage requirements you will need for projects of this magnitude, it is quite colossal I know that drive prices are tumbling but still if you do a couple of videos a month things will start to get rather cramped ( I am still talking on the semi pro basis here).
I have done many wedding videos mainly for friends but I have done some freelance work, I agree that more than 1 camera is definitely best, remember though if you do go pro the assistants will not want to work for free so it is all about gauging your clients requirements against their budget, herein lies my point with fox video, if you have a digital capacity then you will be seeking clients whose budget must be higher to see you with a sufficiently high enough return on your investment, so to fork out a load of cash going digital for three cameras and then the edit suite or PC based non linear system must mean that you can get a return.
The average couple and lets face it this will be 90% of your clients will place the video way down on their list of priorities on the wedding budget and the figure bounding around of 350 pounds is one that sounds acceptable and based on HI-8 analogue editing set-ups cameras included seems fair.
Just because you have DV editing equipment doesn’t mean that the couple will pay you more for the video does it?, No camera or edit system can make up for a badly lit room, poor sound and poor camera work. Inadequate lighting is the one thing that really does spoil most semi-pro video work, get this right and you don’t need the super high quality of DV for this line of work, buy a decent lighting rig esp for the evening do, it really pays.
My advice is to take heed from the comments that have been raised here, Fox Video certainly do know their stuff it is just that I don’t agree with them on a few points, the last point is that of the questions raised by them of the pink wedding dresses, what on earth are they on about here, have they not heard of white balance correction found on most decent HI-8 cameras and again most colour problems lie from incorrect lighting not from the cameras being analogue?
Finally packaging that is also important, use decent sleeved cases preferably white and then get full bleed covers printed for each film, this really finishes the job off. If you have a decent inkjet printer this could be used however most high street printers will do a run for a reasonable cost.
So to finish I would stick with your analogue set-up for now, get plenty of experience, get some insurance (This isn’t as pricey as some people are making out ) and if after 18 months or so you still enjoy it then consider your options carefully before you jump in.
I am happily producing videos on my system using 2 cameras HI-8, and a PC running Media Studio 5.2, 2 x 27 GB drives with a Rainbow Runner capture card, semi pro people will snigger here but it aint about what you got its how you use it, I have no complaints, I have a lighting man, charge a reasonable sum, I make enough to make it worth my while, I do it legally and unless my client base increases I will not want or need to go digital.
Have fun because that is why we are on this message board isn’t it, to share ideas, help each other and advise, it is an exciting era in film making of any sort at the moment long may it continue!
Regards Paul Knox
Freeride Video Productions
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Tunni
Contributor posted 04 November 1999
Can someone clarify the terms 1) True Professional 2) Semi-Professional 3) Professional 4) Amateur
Are these all self appointed titles, do they refer to how many hours you work, what day of the week ("Saturday cowboys"). Is it the ammount you get paid? Has it got something to do with the format you use or is it to do with the quality of the work produced. Or do you have to guess?
Quoting these highly subjective and often mythical terms about, renders a good percentage of the issues raised completely meaningless.
Besides I thought all True Professionals left Wedding videos to the Amateurs?
Tunni
(a semi-true proamateur/cowboy)
Gavin Gration
Member posted 04 November 1999 18:06
I forgot to metion one important thing, when filming indoors always remove your spurs !
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Boh!
Member posted 04 November 1999 22:56
Hi, everyone,
I just wanted add my own bit. I am currently trying to start my own business filming and editing. Primarily I am wanting to edit peoples home videos. I understand this is the very bottom end of the market, but it is one that is not catered for at the moment. Secondly, I am wanting to film weddings, birthdays, sports events etc.
All the information that has been passed on here is all very useful. I have been reading over the passed few days with great interest. I am very supportive of anyone wanting to produce amateur or semi-pro work. I myself have spent five yaers at college studying media and video production. But I have found it difficult to get a full time job within that industry in the north of England. I am hoping that I can make a go of my own business, part time to begin with and then full time in the future.
I have a Sony TRV 110E camcorder, and a P2 400, 128 mb, computer with 3 10Gb hard drives running a Miro DC 30+ video capture card. I think this is more than adequate to produce good quality wedding videos and lower budget corporate videos.
Anyway, thats my bit said. Good luck to SVS and all the other people out there looking to start a business in video production.
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SVS
Member posted 05 November 1999 16:25
Hi Paul
I appreciate what your saying about the size of projects (hard disk usage), I am currently using a Miro DC30+ and the shows that I have been doing seem to average 90mins edited, I am just grateful for ‘Miro’s instant video’ usually saving on having to compile the full project.
Mentioning Miro instant Video:
I usually find that a project with lots of cuts, transitions & effects as is required for the dance shows, refuse to playback smoothly from the timeline. The usual problem is a minor stutter or glitch in the video playback, this in turn causes loss of lip synch, which looks almost amusing when dancers clap, then the sound follows later. I have tried all kinds to get around this problem, I now use a separate drive to store the effects, titles and preview files to reduce head activity on the main video drive, although this reduces the frequency of the problem, it doesn’t prevent it happening. I usually end up compiling the project into a series of sub 2GB AVI’s in order, on a clean drive (to ensure the heads don’t have to work to hard), and then laying them down on the timeline. Miro instant video works like a dream on clean projects.
I’m not 100% sure but I think it’s a problem with instant video not using its cache efficiently. Anyone else any experience like this?
Back to the response:
I have a little ‘Copymate deluxe CM2’ its not the best on the market but it supports SVHS and provides color correction if required.
The point on using cases and color sleeves, although I haven’t officially done any of the shows commercially yet! I have sold quite a few tapes to people requesting copies after seeing someone else’s copy; this is what prompted me to work with the organizers to produce an official video of the next show. Anyway every tape that I have sold has been fully labeled and enclosed in a white case with photo quality insert, I like to provide quality and value for money.
Could you name the insurance company you use (e-mail me if you don’t want to put it on the board). I have also been keeping an eye open for inexpensive lighting rigs for the not to distant future, are there any good suppliers that you can think of.
Tunni:
Good point. I am probably the guiltiest one here for using these terms and probably not in their true context.
I started of loosely using the term ‘Professional’ referring to someone charging for his/her services and producing work of quality.
I think of ‘Semi-professional’ as being someone who fills the criteria of the above but does not depend on the industry as a main source of income. This is the category that I hope to be joining.
I think of an ‘Amateur’ as being someone that does the work for no financial gain. This is the category that I am about to leave.
I class a person as a ‘Cowboy’ when the portray them selves to be of professional standard, charging people good money and producing poor quality results, after all this is all about what end up on tape. The videos that I have had the displeasure of watching (they were produced by the people I call cowboys) are tapes that once viewed, will probably never be re-viewed, in-fact you cant keep interested in them the first time around.
People shouldn’t be charged for a video when there is frequent camera shake, constant zooms and pans, where the edits take no account for the sound (the racket from a series of church shots with the bells in the background, where sound hasn’t been replaced with a continuous sound track, is quite simply appalling. On one recent video the COWBOY was actually recording some cutaway shots during the wedding service, when the vicar started to speak you are greeted with a very fast pan to get the vicar back in frame, using only one camera he had no alternative footage to use, the couple paid £450.00 for that example and it contained all the above mentioned ingredients. I almost forgot the best part, the night do, a nice shot of the buffet prior to dining, I wonder did he have to leave the part in where the catering staff were chasing fly’s off the food, there was two nice young attractive girls dancing, their outfits were transparent, they (for some strange reason) were almost the exclusive target of the camera, the dance floor was fool of family and friends but two girls were the focal point for 15mins out of the 20min disco section.
Hello Boh!
I’m pleased that there is more than me finding this stuff useful, I was hoping that others would be following it with interest because it would be a shame for all the time people have spent responding, to be wasted on me alone.
Good luck in your venture.
Yet again thanks everyone
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Trevor Page
Member posted 05 November 1999 23:23
I'd just like to add my 10p worth to the analogue v DV debate argued both here and elsewhere. Although the DV route is slightly more expensive at the moment, the quality of recording on DV equipment is significantly superior to analogue. I know that most people will want their wedding video on VHS tape now, but who knows what quality home videos will be in ten years time? If it is made clear to your customers now that you have high quality masters of their wedding video, then, (assuming they are still married) in ten years they could come back asking for higher quality copies (on the then equivalent of VHS)... money for old rope maybe ???
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ORBITOR
Member posted 06 November 1999 22:18
OK lets grab the bull by the horns and reply to the prices part of the original letter.
If you are to last more than 5 minutes in this industry you must understand that you have to charge at a level that can support you and also replace your gear before it lets you down through over use. With this in mind these are my minimum charges (And I do mean minimum)
1. Wedding , afternoon in reg. office, reception following, film speaches do not stay for first dance £450.00
2. Wedding, Church then to recpetion film speaches do not stay for first dance £475.00
3. Wedding , Reg Office film at reception including first dance (expect to have to wait about 1 hr later than they tell you normal finish time 2030-2100hrs) £565.00
4. Wedding in church film speeches and first Dance ( same warnings apply) £620.00
5. Wedding Church or Reg office film bride at home, service, reception, first dance £675.00
6. pre film couple say in a park holding hands to soft music, and all of package 5 above £850.00
All the above filmed with 2 digital cameras and edit digital, 3 copys on VHS in custom cases inculded in price
As to the piont of insurance I agree with Fox you cannot afford to take risks, One claim could bankrupt you.
As to the point Fox made about music and licences, In my oppion anyone who uses copywrite music is MAD, there is now plenty of good copywrite free music out, and yes you do need to by it (normal cost about £25 per CD ) And yes you do need all the correct licences to record live sound ( I even now Dub the music of the ever horible disco with copywrite free music, no one has ever complained and said "Did they play that music")
MOTO:- Protect youself and keep things as simple as posible if you do not wish to fall flat on your face.
I wish you luck, but try to remember you have a lot of resosabilty on your shoulders, turn in a good high class product and you will soon find that the truly proffesional operators will soo welcome you to the fold.
Regards
Clive.
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Charles
Contributor posted 06 November 1999
My source of insurance but i don't film is AXA they do a all in one policy for working from home and home contents there is also a couple of adverts in Cam\User etc.
Charles
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Tunni
Contributor posted 07 November 1999
SVS
How can I get a copy of the video with the disco section!!!
Tunni
PS. By the way I thought your answers to my post were well thought, best of luck with your venture. You seem to have a critical eye which will put you in good stead, most of the advice on this site is good and positive.
Ignore the doom merchants there are just too many around readily spouting out their negative opinions. (couched as advice!)
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SVS
Member posted 07 November 1999 20:23
Hello Clive
Thank you for the informative response, it is what I have been looking for, I have appreciated all the feedback from everyone. But what I was after more than anything was confirmation that my idea of pricing was not to far out, I appreciate that there are people around here doing the weddings for £400.00 but when I do get started, I will not be joining the bargain basement crew, I will be offering a superior product and expect a fair return.
The pricing I had in mind was as follows:
£500.00 for a 2-camera shoot of the whole day but making it clear that time would be limited on the editing side of things, while maintaining a high standard of service.
I do like the idea of leaving the first dance off; this gives an opportunity to offer that little extra service for a small premium.
£800.00 for a 3-camera shoot with a more refined video coming from more time spent editing, this would include the first dance.
£900.00 / £20.00/hr A premium service with a starting price, this service would allow the fussy customer to view the tape as I have edited it and request alterations. Alterations would come under the hourly rate and would be on top of the initial £900.00 The idea of this is to give an option to the control freak type of customer that think they should be judge and jury on what the finished product should look like, well they can, but they will have to pay for that privilege.
For the music side of things I have six BVG copyright free CD’s, the music isn’t brilliant but it gives me material to start with. I am currently checking on the insurance side of things.
A lot of what has been said by just about everyone does seem obvious but is useful to here, it has been nice to see that I have been on the right track with my planning, however I will now be producing physical tick sheets to cover topics such as:
Overall preparation: contacting people and prepare equipment etc. (Days leading up to the wedding)
Wedding day preparation; for equipment packing etc. (this can also be used for quick checks on equipment prior to relocating)
Service check sheet: This may seem daft but with nerves as they will be, especially on some of the first weddings, I don’t want to suddenly realise that I’ve missed out on a shot of the couple having a relaxing stroll when things finally settle down, or even the bridesmaids presenting the bride with good luck charms. These will only account for a couple of second of footage, they would be easy to miss out on but, if included they would become invaluable to the relevant people.
Tunni
The disco section is with the rest of the pitiful tape, hidden in the back of a drawer, never to be seen again. Sorry but I would have to break the law to get it again.
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foxvideo
Member posted 07 November 1999 21:48
Just a couple of points on your last post SVS! We never invite the couple to become involved in editing a Wedding Video. They never want anything edited out and you're likely to end up with a product you won't want to put your name to! Editing is by far the most skilled and time-consuming part of the production and we've found the Bride and Groom never miss any footage you've edited out, if you do the job well they'll just be thrilled with the result. It's the opposite with commercial work, we generally encourage the client to be present during editing, that way they do get the result they are paying you for.
On your pricing/planning, once we gained experience in Weddings we used to discourage the Bride from having any filming done at her house before the Church, she's always running late and you need all the time you can get setting up and getting cut aways at the Church. The only way you can get round this is to send your second camera operator to the Bride's home but we found that this footage usually only yielded a few useable snatches as the atmosphere is always (barely) controlled chaos!
Likewise we never offered to film after the first dance. Hours of repetitive disco dancing do not make for good or watchable video. (We told the couple that to film the disco we'd need to put up bright lights that would spoil the atmosphere of their party, no-one ever argued with that!) For the first dance we put up one light, use the camera hand-held and get in really close to follow the couple round + perhaps a bit of the parents dancing as well, it always made for a nice end to the video. There is always a gap from the end of the speeches etc to the start of the disco but often the caterers would take pity on us and feed us - usually very well - so that filled the space quite nicely!
We never used more than one camera on a Wedding, with skill and experience you can make it look as if you had two or three and it saves you money on equipment/tapes + frees your assistant up to really support you and "watch your back" for shots and everything else. Always though take back up equipment, cameras can and do go down at the worst moments!
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Dave Farrants
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SVS
Member posted 08 November 1999 13:49
Hello again Dave (Foxvideo)
I understand where you’re coming from with the bit about not involving the customer. I can see how that could go wrong but my idea wasn’t to give them too much say or even let them see what’s been cut out. I thought that after editing, (but while the project is still laid out in Premiere and there for easy to alter/tweak) the tape that would normally be the finished product could be presented to the couple, if the couple didn’t like a style of wipe, an effect that I had incorporated (picture in picture or anything else), or even footage showing an unwelcome guest, these things could be corrected for a small charge without to much extra work.
I thought that this kind of service would appeal to a small amount of customers that are happy to pay a little extra to have their say, the more say, the more they have to pay.
I also understand that most customers are only going to think about the money and why I should charge more than some of the others around, its because of this that I am currently working on a form of presentation with video clip demonstrations, I think that this will give more of a professional image, it will also give me the opportunity to explain a little about the difference of a cheep rush job and a quality production, they can then make their own mind up knowing that there is already a difference between my presentation and what the others come up with.
I really do like the excuse for not shooting the disco because as you said they are very repetitive and boring to watch (on a final tape).
From my own past experience, I will always stick with a minimum of two cameras at least for the church; one camera will always be fixed in position overlooking the ceremony and isle, this footage will be invaluable for capturing everything, in the event of me having a problem or not having time to relocate for some reason, I will always have footage to cut to. I also like the idea of the second camera being left running to capture the sound of the bells, this will be useful for a replacement soundtrack for clips of footage outside the church. The use of a third camera again will be mainly for the church activities, this will only be when people are paying the premium rates that will cover the cost of an additional camera operator.
By the way I’ve got a cheep little assistant lined up (my 16 year old nephew) he’s mature enough to behave and I will find his services invaluable for packing/unpacking equipment, fetching and carrying, he may even make an apprentice camera man for the future.
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ORBITOR
Member posted 10 November 1999 12:22
I agree with Fox again. NEVER I MEAN NEVER invite the couple or there folks in on the edit, you cannot edit by committe, all you will wind up with is a mess. As to only using one camera as Fox suggests, why waist a person as a minder when they could be getting those nice little personal cut aways that so many people miss, after all weddings are about people interacting together.
As to filming after the first dance I never offer this service at any price, you only need some smart drunk alex to tip beer all over your camera and your nights work will be in tatters.
I agree with Fox about filming at the house I only offer it becase weathy couples with super big houses, I have found that they like to see the bride in her dress at home before the wedding ( I do insist that she is ready to be filmed 30mins before the depature to the church, I tellthem that if she is not I will be unable to stay as I will miss the groom at the church ). So in general dont film at the house unless they insist.
One thing that has not been mentioned so far is dress code, I always wear a Jacket, White Shirt and Tie to weddings as first impressions are important, I worked alongside a stills photographer one day who wore geens and an open neck shirt, I tell you it did not go down well with the familys. Not that I belive you are the sort of person by your mail to do such a thing
Good Luck, and get some advertising going ( Yellow Pages is fairly good for results )
Clive.