SONY HDR-HC1 or 7 (B-ROLL) with FX1

16 replies [Last post]
digitalady
Offline
Joined: May 10 2006

Hello,

I am curious if any of you have other recs prior to my purchase of the SONY HDR-HC7- I actually like the HDR-HC1 as well.

In a 2 cam shoot on location (Central America) where size will matter- the smaller 2nd cam option will definatley be convienant. No filming visa, attention, etc.

Origionally I was going to match the cam I already own SONY HDR-FX1- but then thought the option of a smaller HDV CAM is something to consider. My main concern is the difference in 3CCD VS > 1 CMOS. I think sticking with SONY is smart, but am very drawn to other brands models.

ANy other ideas as CAM B to match the FX1- yet smaller and HDV- record only to tape.

Thanks!

:D Open Your Senses: New Media As An ARt!
http://www.DIGITALADY.com;)

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

The single-chip performance of the A1/HC1/HC7 is quite markedly inferior to the FX1/Z1 (I have an A1, but would never consider using it professionally). Use them only if you need a small camera.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

tom hardwick
Offline
Joined: Apr 8 1999

Like Alan says, you're not going to easily match the FX1 with a single chipper. And as the HC7 doesn't follow the FX1's ergonomics or use any of the same accessories, you might want to take a close look at the Canon HV20. This camera has received far more glowing reviews than the HC1/7 from those that know, and especially from those that have bought.

tom.

DAVE M
Offline
Joined: May 17 1999

bear in mind that two different cameras may require different accessories and batteries in particular. it can be more cost effective to buy a second camera that's slightly more expensive than an alternative and then save money buy buying the minimum extras

sticking to sony might enable you to travel with only the one battery type - it's sod's law that if you take two types, it's the "other2 ones that are charged and the ones that you need are flat.

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

The HCs use the small batteries, FX1 has the big ones. So there's no economy there, might as well go for a different manufacturer, and I'd endorse looking at Canon.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

colin rowe
colin rowe's picture
Offline
Joined: Dec 16 2000

I have regularly used my HC1 with an FXI for weddings. I use the HC1 for cutaways to the congregation. This has always worked well. I would never use the HC1 on the same shot as the FX1, the differences are glaringly obvious. A couple of weeks ago I picked up a Canon HV10 for £350 in Comet Exeter. It had no AC adaptor, I purchaced a BP-315 Ansmann battery and battery charger for £32 and was away. I even got them to throw in a 2 year warranty. The camera was purchased for my own use, and at this price I couldnt resist. It is tiny eneough to pop in a pocket and take anywhere. I took the camera to a wedding last Saturday and set it up on a shelf next to the FX1. I started editing the wedding on Monday and was amazed at the picture quality of this little camera, it matches the FX1 far more closely than the HC!. The wedding was at Buckland Manor (Devon), the church was tiny and not best illuminated, but boy does this tiny camera deliver, I actually used 8 clips from the HV10 in the final edit. I reckon at the price I paid I got the deal of the year

Colin Rowe

David L Lewis
Offline
Joined: Jan 11 2006

I'm in a similar dilema as digital lady I'm looking for a second camera to go with my Z1

Now I thought I had 5 options

1 a Sony HC7
2 an A1
3 an FX1
4 an FX7 or,
5 another Z1

From what people are saying the picture quality of the HC7 and the A1 are markedly inferior to the Z1. so that rules them out.

so Ive really only got three options now.

All of the remaining options are going to need a new tripod as well

Obviously another Z1 would be the best optionbut its obviously the most expensive once youve added a case, a big battery and the tripod you are not looking at much less than £4 K
However the FX7 and FX1 would be cheaper options but do they stil retail the FX1 and what about the FX7 does its picture quality compare well with the FX7?

David L Lewis

Hello I'm in Mensa, Is there anything you would like me to explain to you?

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

Consider the Sony V1, certainly better than HC1/7/A1. If you don't mind steering away from Sony, the Canons' are probably best bets.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

digitalady
Offline
Joined: May 10 2006
SHooting with 2 brands
tom hardwick wrote:
Like Alan says, you're not going to easily match the FX1 you might want to take a close look at the Canon HV20.
tom.

I HAVE BEEN ADVISED TO MATCH THE BRAND- TO ACHIEVE A CLOSER IMAGE QUALITY- YOU FEEL THE CANON WOULD MATCH BETTER THAN ANOTHER SONY. INTERESTING- WILL LOOK INTO THAT CAM. THX!

:D Open Your Senses: New Media As An ARt!
http://www.DIGITALADY.com;)

digitalady
Offline
Joined: May 10 2006
Smaller sony cam

I agree. Can you reccomend a smaller sony cam that would match better then the HDR-HC7? What about the HC1?- I heard this is a little brother to the FX1?

:D Open Your Senses: New Media As An ARt!
http://www.DIGITALADY.com;)

digitalady
Offline
Joined: May 10 2006
Matching Z1

Hey Dave,

Honestly from my experience with the FX1 and FX7 - I would go with the FX1- even though it is more recent- I would check the online reviews and specs for these two- i remember there being drawbacks to the FX7. ;-)

I would definatley say match with the same cam- my situation- is the location- I will need a SMALLer more 'tourist' and inconspicious cam. ;-)

Good luck.

:D Open Your Senses: New Media As An ARt!
http://www.DIGITALADY.com;)

digitalady
Offline
Joined: May 10 2006
SIZE vs. QUALITY

It sounds like the HC1 is a no go. I will look into that canon that was reccomended but have fear of using 2 brands. AGain these other cams are great- but again- I feel the small size may be important if I can come close to matching quality. Budget is about $2,000 USD.

:D Open Your Senses: New Media As An ARt!
http://www.DIGITALADY.com;)

tom hardwick
Offline
Joined: Apr 8 1999

If your budget is $2k then the HV20 fits in there nicely, as there will be money over for a nice Raynox wide-angle converter and a couple of bigger batteries. Look at what what Colon R has to say about the previous model - the HV10, and think that Canon have improved the camera hugely in the 20. (Unlike Sony I may add, who took the TRV900 and dumbed it right down to the TRV950, then managed to dumb that down further to the HC1000. Unbelievable).

The FX1 may well be hard to find now, but David LL - that's the camera for you (if, like me, you can't stretch to another Z1). It'll match your Z1 perfectly on the timeline (bar the black stretch and audio of course), and as a second and back-up camera you'll be instantly at home with it as you quickly set it up.

The FX7's picture quality does indeed compare well with the FX1 - in fact I think it's better. Ther zoom's noticeably longer but the downer is the tiny chips and the dof problems this brings. It's also less good in the gloom, and how Colin manages to use an HC1 in dim churches I'll never know. My Z1 has been in gain-up mode all this year.

The V1 would be a goer, but the noise out there is that its audio circuitry is dire, and I for one would stay well clear. Sony may have a batch problem on their hands here, or it may well be more endemic. The FX7 is a dumbed down audio version of the V1, which frightenes me even more.

The video, made by a well respected audio engineer I'm in contact with, may be viewed on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiyXrsfXuWw

tom.

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

The HC7 is a cut-down version of the HC1, which in turn is a cutdown version of the A1. None of them owe anything to the FX1 or Z1.

In professional broadcasting, it has always been accepted that matching two different cameras (i.e. different models even from the same manufacturer) is difficult. It's even more so when the cameras are from different manufacturers. However, with the extra-flexibility in high end cameras it's cetrtainly possible to get a surprisingly good match. When we were setting up "Planet Earth", I spent 3 days in a studio in Bristol, attempting to match a Sony HDW750 to a Panasonic Varicam (HDC27F). We did it, by tweaking controls that I never thought I'd have to use. At the end of that session, we couildn't tell which camera was which (viewed on Sony 24" HD crt monitors via HDSDI). The only difference was the line structure (1080 for the Sony, 720 for the Panasonic). It was only when we had to up- or down-convert the camera pictures to a common standard that we started to see differences.

Now, the cameras you're looking at have nothing like the same flexibility, so matching to that accuracy is out of the question. But, there's likely to be a bigger difference between any of the HC1/HC7/A1 and a FX1 than there is between a FX1 and a 3-chip Canon. Most of the differences you see in cameras in this price range are down to the limitations in the image processing. I could go into a long description of what all this means, but I suspect you don't want to know :)

If your main camera is FX1/Z1, then stick with 3-chip cameras for the "also-rans", you'll get pictures that you can more easily match in post. Going down to the HC/A1 cameras will get you into a whole range of image problems that you can't fix in post, simply because the cameras are made down to a price spec rather than up to a performance spec.

My 2 pen'orth.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

digitalady
Offline
Joined: May 10 2006
Hv20! Canon & Sony Fx1

Wow! This cam shoots in higher res or shall I say full res HD! Also has 24P with cinemode or 60i option- along with others. Very nice! This cam far outweighs the Sony HC1 capabilities. Thanks guys for the info.

I am STILL nervous about matching the 2 brands and such- but feel this will not be the same shock when cut along side the fx1- and the small size is just what I need.

I plan to do tests when I get the cam- to know settings prior to travel (less than 3 wks!)

:)

:D Open Your Senses: New Media As An ARt!
http://www.DIGITALADY.com;)

digitalady
Offline
Joined: May 10 2006
Thanks Tom

Tom, this HV20 looks like just what I need for the budget, thanks for the advice- I had been looking at the RAYnox lens' for the FX1 as well. I didnt know they made them for this model of canon- I will check it out!

:D Open Your Senses: New Media As An ARt!
http://www.DIGITALADY.com;)

tom hardwick
Offline
Joined: Apr 8 1999

Sometimes I think we fear the 'cutting together two cameras' too much. If both cameras are alongside one another filming the wedding speeches for instance then yes, it's important they match. If one is up filming the b & g in closeup and the other's at the back of the church then it may only be simple white balance correction in post that's needed. Two clicks and it's done.

Of course it's best if both cameras are matched up beforehand - both shooting interlaced, same w/bal and with the same shutter speed for instance.

The HV20 is much newer than the HC1, so should be better in a lot of respects. The resolution in 24P from the near-1"/3 chip has eye-widening properties, even to Z1 owners. The zoom rocker is a bit naff and the styling is pure 'vacation' but this gives it great appeal when the 'no professional video allowed' official appears.

Raynox make great single element 'clip-on' wide converters. Amazingly cheap and wonderfully effective. The range is here:
http://www.raynox.co.jp/english/dcr/egindex.htm

tom.