Anyone have any tips for getting that 70s style trace effect used in many pop videos in the 70s ,
like the jackson 5 vid here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjW1iq4IO2k&feature=related
and this bit in that Snoop Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZX_QoZzGWE#t=3m05s
I am using Premiere CS3 , but have access to FCP & After Effects.
Any further info or tips on getting within a range of this effect via plugins , tutorial links etc.. would be greatly appreciated
This (Howlround) can be achieved by connecting the camera output to a monitor and pointing the camera at the monitor, creating a loop.
The visual equivalent of the high-pitched whine that results if you point a PA microphone at its own loudspeaker.
As you have AE you could have a play with Effect>Time>Echo.
http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to-echo-effect-after-effects-cs3-160262/view/
The two videos use two different effects. I'm sorry to contradict Dugi, but neither of them are created by using 'Howlround' as he describes. The effect he describes can be clearly seen at one point in the Bohemian Rhapsody video by Queen, but it's not what was used on these two videos.
The Jackson Five effect is a time strobe effect which IIRC can be created by an FCP effect plugin (I forget it's name). This can also be done manually but it's quite fiddly, by taking a still snapshot every couple of frames and underlaying it on a track below the main one, then fading out over a second or so. This is done multiple times (one every couple of frames) and on multiple lower tracks. It works best on a single colour background which then is easy to key out on all the tracks but the lowest, as in the J5 video. The variables are how many frames between captures, how long the fade of the still takes and these determine how many tracks need to be used. Be warned though it will take a lot of time and effort and you will need to have a lot of layers... perhaps 12 to 15 or so.
I'm not sure if theres a filter or plugin for the 'Snoop' effect. But it could be created in a similar way to the above with keying and multiple tracks, the difference is that you colour the lower track images and expand/distort their dimensions over time.
I hope the above makes sense. :D
the howl-round/video feedback is what was used on the old Dr Who title sequence - where the video effects dept consisted of a bunch of guys with mechano and bent spoons.
I'll try both out ,i;ll be working with a green screen so the background will be one colour eventually , I can't imgaine I will be organised time wise to do that effect manually , be great to find a plugin for it .
Cheers
How about using the Echoes effect in Premiere , there is a strobe effect aswell but its combined with a lighting effect ..... but yeh looks like a manual frame layering at the mo
to get even near that effect , cannot find any info on a plugin that would do such a thing
FCP or premiere
I stand corrected Chrome. You are right and apologies to will.
I must stop early morning post(s).
the howl-round/video feedback is what was used on the old Dr Who title sequence - where the video effects dept consisted of a bunch of guys with mechano and bent spoons.
Although he's too modest to mention it, we have on this forum one of the BBC's Video Effects Supervisors from the great days in the 1970s and 1980s when video effects (particularly digital video effects) were new and exciting (the word 'Supervisor' in their title gave them a better pay grading). I can assure you that Meccano and bent spoons were not part of their armoury, which was all electronic. Their earlier job title was in fact Electronic Effects Operator and they worked on a very wide range of programmes with some of their best work (as with the film industry) being so good that you didn't realise that you were looking at an effect.
There was also a department called Visual Effects (part of the Design department, which designed and built scenery) which dealt in mechanical effects (anything from a Swingometer to a Dalek). They may well have had some Meccano (but BBC spoons were plastic).
Ray
Hey my man Ray, you too Dave M, don't go dissing me meccano.;)
I inherited mine when I was in short trousers, and still have it in the next millenia and occasionaly use it for DIY, installing car radios etc.
Anyway Ray, you tease, who is this modest pioneering special effects master on this forum?
Does he eat porridge for breakfast to achieve that outer glow - or just live near Sellafield.:D
Anyway Ray, you tease, who is this modest pioneering special effects master on this forum?
I've PH'd him to allow him to reveal himself (or not), but here's a clue. There were only ever eight of these specialists (Mitch, the two Daves, Robin, Adam, Ian, Danny and Nick). If you check the credits for Top Of The Pops in the 70s, 80s or 90s you'll come across the name (TOTP always had a VES in addition to the Vision Mixer and the show was often used as a 'schedule filler' for the VESs so everyone worked on it at one time or another).
Oh, and I'm not knocking Meccano - my own boyhood set (enough to build the hammerhead crane) is waiting for when I've got enough time to have a good play with it again.
Ray
Those of you who attended the February exhibition may have met him. (I feel like the Easter Bunny laying clues!)
Any luck will?
Hi Will....
I think Dugi and Chrome are both partly right......
The Jackson Five video (1978) was almost certainly a howlround, but not using a camera on a monitor, it uses a one frame delay (probably digital) fed from the output of the 'switcher' and mixed or keyed back in with the original shot. The delay is low gain (hence decaying trail), low chroma (hence not colourful) and slightly mis-timed (giving the trail movement towards the left of frame).
Jump forward 29 years, and Mr. Dogg's video will certainly be the result of computer compositing.... but I wouldn't know what hardware/software....
The good news is that both types of effect can be done on After Effects without needing special plug-ins (although the "echo" plugin or "CC Time Blend FX" plug-in will almost instantly give something a bit like the Jackson Five effect.......)
The trick is to work with a numbered sequence of TIF frames, where frame 1 is recorded and then played back immediately as a source for frame two...... here is a brief step by step tutorial ( ....I hope no one minds me doing this on the forum.....) BOLD BITS are important....
You mentioned a green screen shot, so I'll assume you want to key that over the howlround.....
1. Import the greenscreen shot into AE and make a composition the same size, framerate and duration, and with the greenscreen shot as a layer. Apply a keyer effect to key the green out (to nothing.... it will be on a black background)
2. Render out the composition as a numbered TIF sequence (no alpha).... lets call it HOWL_[####]. (Don't worry what the TIFs look like, they will get over-written in a later stage)
3. Import the HOWL_0000 TIF sequence into AE. Drop this onto the timeline below the greenscreen shot but shifted one frame later than the greenscreen shot.
4. Set up a render out of THE EXACT SAME TIF SEQUENCE.... HOWL_[####]...but don't start it yet.
5. Go to the first frame of the sequence.
6. On the top menu, go to EDIT/PURGE/ALL
7. Start the render. You will be asked if you want to overwrite the sequence... say yes.
This is the basics of a very heavy handed "howlround"... try colour balancing the HOWL_0000 layer darker to get decay, zoom in or out, pan, or rotate a bit to get movement into the trail, add a phase change to get rainbow effects....you have to render out each time to see the effect.
You must do steps 5, 6 and 7 each time you render.
Remember, this method repeatedly overwrites the HOWL_[####] TIF sequence..... so if you get something you like, make a copy of the TIF sequence in a different folder to keep, and keep saving your AE Project with version numbers....
See how you go with that lot and let me know...?
Maybe Ray's effects man will have some ideas as well.....?
Good Luck.
d j
I've PH'd him to allow him to reveal himself (or not), but here's a clue. There were only ever eight of these specialists (Mitch, the two Daves, Robin, Adam, Ian, Danny and Nick). If you check the credits for Top Of The Pops in the 70s, 80s or 90s you'll come across the name (TOTP always had a VES in addition to the Vision Mixer and the show was often used as a 'schedule filler' for the VESs so everyone worked on it at one time or another).Oh, and I'm not knocking Meccano - my own boyhood set (enough to build the hammerhead crane) is waiting for when I've got enough time to have a good play with it again.
Ray
PH? Private Holla?
>Mitch, the two Daves, Robin, Adam, Ian, Danny and Nick
Ah yes, loved the legend of Xanadu.
I googled VES TOTP and got:
VES (Voluntary Euthanasia Society) definition - Medical Dictionary ...
Fink I got it wrong?
Try again and maintaining semi-covert operations I link this:
http://ftvdb.bfi.org.uk/sift/title/564088?view=credit
Respect to the pioneer.:cool: :cool: :cool:
I'd bow down and say 'I'm not worthy', but I'll save that for PANS people.:D
Thanks Dave !
Just finished 2 day shoot in the green studio , thanks for your detailed breakdown I will be using it very soon...
Also going to have an experiment filming it off my JVC 17" CRT with my Canon XL1s , for the infinity effect , could look good !
cheers
Will
......Also going to have an experiment filming it off my JVC 17" CRT with my Canon XL1s .....
Hi Will,
The traditional "howlround" used a studio vision mixer to mix together the shot of the dancer (or whatever) and the output of the camera looking at the monitor. The output of the vision mixer is what was fed to the monitor input.
Unless you can arrange some sort of mix (and it's not easy without the right equipment.... apart from anything else the dancer shot and the camera have to be synchronised) you may find you cannot get the effect you need.
If you can set up two monitors edge to edge, with the front faces at 90 degrees to each other, and put a sheet of glass at 45 degrees between them, you could put the camera on one monitor, the dancer shot (pre-preoared..... flipped horizontally and keyed to black) on the other. This will give you a sort of optical "mix".
Point the camera at the monitor showing the camera and play with framing, monitor settings and exposure etc. to try and get a howlround going. A darkish room might help.
I have not tried this..... it is just a suggestion of a work-around to a lack of mixing facilities. I can't see why it shouldn't work though.
I use a poster sized picture frame (a strong, rigid metal frame, with the back femoved and the glass safely secured with masking tape) when I need to do anything like this.... but do be very careful with large sheets of glass.... (the forum doesn't have an "accidents and safety" section, and I'd like to see it stay that way!)
Good luck....
d j
PS Please note this system does not use Meccano..... ;)
Just realised , my technique is floored....
how about this - a monitor playing the footage , a camera filming that monitor - a live feed from that camera going to another monitor , my other camera filming that monitor !
bobs your uncle , i'll let you know....
cheers will
ahh really dont think i have grasped the concept yet , ill try the mirror technique
setup a basic glass and monitor technique , basic howlaround achieved , way too blurry
and crazy for my production , all good fun though , I think it would be good for an art project etc...
I am going to pursue the labour instensive frame delay in After effects , I think i could probably just do it all in Premiere CS3 , if i can work out a quick working method I think it will be ok !
How about this trace effect at around 1 minute , real time or after effect ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK_0Lx0wHEQ&feature=fvw
Hi Will
....the After Effects system is not really that "labour intensive".... you set up the project as I outlined and hit render just the once..... you don't have to do things repeatedly except to fine tune the effect settings.....
The YouTube example looks very much like the result of "CC Time Blend FX" (or could be done with "echo") plugin in After Effects..... once again, you'll have to test and refine the settings...
("CC Time Blend FX" uses a luminance key to put the echo trail behind the prime image... you would have to key your greenscreen out to black before applying that effect)
I'm not surprised you found the monitor howlround blurry.... they do tend to be, because of the repeated optical stage in the process ...suitable for some things but obviously not what you are doing.... :)
....Dugi's reply to your original post has a link to a tutorial.... watch that from about 3.30 to find out how to set up "echo" effect in AE....... it's really straightforward.... d.