XL2 or Z1

Surely both of them are a bit dated now for a new purchase?

Really? Admittably, I am somewhat out of touch with the low end prosumer level (Been renting Digi for about two years now)

My budget to buy a camera is not huge, and I assume the XL2 / Z1 are still capable of "doing the job" (I believe Z1's are still used for a lot of news features)

Why not just get this? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SONY-DVW-709WSP-DIGITAL-BETACAM-camcorder-12bit-ADSP-/260649259776?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_Video_Camcorders&hash=item3cafe81300

It will solve a lot of your media problems!

I've noticed a few bodies going very cheap (and I still believe Digi has the legs to last a few more years, despite people writing it off for many years) but after you get a lens, battery pack, tripod etc etc etc the cost would be just too much for me.

Then don't waste your valuable money on old HDV camera's and get one of these:http://direct.tesco.com/q/R.208-6010.aspx

Far better pictures and full HD too!

But I suspect you will disagree with me!

Z1's have only ever really been considered acceptable in a broadcast sense for SD in DVCAM mode, and normally only used for the lower end videojournalist work or where smaller cameras are deemed essential - higher end work would likely go to DSR500's etc.

Also note I originally said "for a new purchase". Any Z1's in broadcast use are likely to be getting a bit long in the tooth and very unlikely to be replaced with new Z1's.

My personal advice would be to try really, really hard to stretch to the budget for an EX1. It's small and light enough to be suitable for the weddings you mention, but far more acceptable for higher end work than any HDV or AVC-HD camera on the market. The new Canons are arguably even better (with their fully approved codec), but they are even more expensive still.

XL2 vs FX1 - my choice would be the XL2, unless final delivery were specifically for HD. XL2 is a professional camera and the only potential disadvantage it has against the FX1 is that it is exclusively SD. However, the quality of its SD is unsurpassed in its class. It has true progressive recording, as well as true widescreen, interchangeable lenses, 4 XLR channels, SDI out, semi-shoulder mount, well-positioned viewfinder, loads of picture controls - it's just a brilliant bit of kit! DVDs produced from its footage are going to knock spots off those from FX1 HDV.

All that said, if your budget can stretch to it, a newer model might well be worth investigating ...

XL2 or Z1? I agree with most people here that say that both cameras have had their day as regards buying new today. One's SD (remember that?) and they're both tape (remember that, too?). You want an EX1R or its baby brother the NX5.

Both are fine cameras, though I bet Sony sold 3 Z1s to every XL2 Canon sold. The interchangeable lens idea is good for very specialist applications, but unless you're in those fields, why pay for the complexity? Also your header says Z1 but your text says FX1 - which are you considering? The FX1 is out of its depth for weddings, minor corporate work and documentary work simply because of its lack of XLRs.

So in my view it's EX, NX, Z1, XL2, FX1. 'handycam'.

tom.

Sorry, it's a Z1 I am considering. (A FX1 is what I once owned)

Tom, I still record SD on tape to this day quite a bit. Clients still ask for it. Even with the Z1, I would shoot 50i rather than a compressed 1080i.

My problem with the EX1 is, its a relatively unproven recording medium. Who's to say in a a little while that too is a redundant format? Or are there long term plans for it?

My other concern is, recording on cards, I read that if something were to go wrong with the card - you're fucked. Can they be fickle? It would be deadly for me.

*EDIT* Although watching this, the quality could very well be brilliant under proper lighting conditions http://www.vimeo.com/1723406. Has anybody ever used the EX1 with a digibeta? How well does the footage looked spliced together?

One thing to consider if you are about to consider stepping up to the EX1 or NX5 is that Sony Professional Finance do two year interest free deals on them, like this, for example:
http://www.videokit.co.uk/2701-sony-mw-ex1rp.html
So you don't need to find all the money up front. I buy all my cameras this way, couldn't afford it otherwise.

Sony's invested a whole professional camera range in the EXCAM XD format. It's not going anywhere. Works natively in most NLEs and much less compressed than the AVCHD of the NX series. It's hardly unproven!

The SxS cards aren't fickle at all. I shoot on them and the cheaper SD cards and I've never had a problem yet. There are a few rules to follow, but stick to them and you should be OK.

Well, the EX has now been out long enough, and is so widely adopted that I think SxS is extremely unlikely to go away anytime soon. It's also being used by other manufactuers, and the likelihood seems to be that it will become even more widely adopted within the Sony product range in due course. It is also based on ExpressCard architecture, which is current IT technology, which is not something Panasonic can say about P2. (That's based on CardBus.)

Nothing, no system, is 100% infallible, but the evidence seems to be that if it says you're recording, you're recording - reliably. In that sense it may have an advantage over any tape system. There are things you can do to improve your chances as well, such as the camera having the ability to clone the material between cards in camera very quickly, which gives possibilities such as shooting to an SxS card and making one or more SDHC clones reliably in camera.

If you were really, really worried, you could also attach a nanoFlash to it, and make two recordings at the same time. But then, you may have forgotten to charge the camera batteries, or the interviewee may die of a heart attack mid interview....... Nothing can ever be 100% infallible...... ;)

Good thinking. I used my Z1 in the SD mode for years, especially when I knew there was no final HD output wanted or needed. Like you I considered it more reliable (less compressed) than HDV, and in a one-chance situation you should aim to reduce the variables as much as possible.

Redundant format? All formats are redundant ultimately, although the Dead Sea Scrolls might have you believe otherwise. But now I'm shooting to SDHC card in the NX5 I feel a whole lot safer than shooting SD to tape in the Z1. Never had a problem with the latter, but the point is this: it's only a matter of time until you do. The matter of time still applies to recording to flash memory, but the time-scale is considerably lengthened.

tom.

Some interesting posts, thank you.

So, who has hands on experience with the camera?

How does the footage match up with Digibeta in an edit (an interview say) or even a DSR 570? How does the quality compare?

Which camera - the Z1? I have lots of hands on experience, but no comparisons with anything DB or DSR.

The comparisons you're asking for are between wildly differing cameras, with different resolutions, different size sensors, different lens types, different recording types. Very difficult to give any advice at all, except have a look yourself.

I can appreciate the cameras are very different. But as an example, I have matched up Z1 and Digi footage in the past, the results are somewhat, iffy. Just awkward where the Digi was FAR superior to the Z1, even under the same lighting.

Would the EX1 have the same effect?

Yes, but to a lesser extent. The EX1 is still infra-red sensitive, so colouring will still be strange and variable, and the resolutions and contrast range are different.

Hmm, that may very well put me off a purchase then.

The EX1 is far superior to the Z1. If you are shooting footage on the EX1 to match already-shot DigiBeta then you can set up your picture profiles on the EX1 to get closer to the Digibeta's looks. The infra-red thing is a bit of a red herring (if you'll pardon the expression) as the new EX1Rs have a modification from the original EX1 that significantly reduces this issue.

And I understand it's possible to get an IR cut filter for an original EX1 (a secondhand one of which may more suit Nintembos price bracket!) which largely solves any IR worries on earlier cameras.

Yes, I have such a thing on my EX1, a B+W486 that makes my blacks black!

The EX1 would however match up to the Sony F35 :)

Steve

I see this appears as a very pale blue filter to the naked eye, Mark: does it have any effect on exposure, or is it clear enough to not require opening up the aperture at all?

Martin, it looks red, almost bronze coloured when viewed from the front on the camera, but pretty neutral to look through. AFAICT it has no effect on exposure, unlike the Tiffen equivalent, but it's hard to tell as it's not come off the camera since I bought it. In extreme wide angle there is supposed to be a little bit of green vignetting, but I've never noticed it myself.

Thanks, Mark.

A proper IR cut filter is dichroic. It passes visible light and reflects IR. So it could look a dull red/brown from the input side. The last thing you want is an absorptive IR filter, because that would get hot when stopping IR, whereas dichroics run cold.

May not be too important, but if you're used to the global shutters that come with the CCD sensors, found in the earlier cameras discussed in this thread, then the rolling shutters that come with the CMOS sensors fitted to the more recent models mentioned, might bring up some surprises?

I'm thinking of flashbanding in particular , but any fast pan or high vibration work might have to be approached a bit differently.

As I say, may not be a 'deal breaking' problem, but I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned at all in this thread (AFAIK - haven't rechecked all the posts! :) )

Yea verily, the rolling shutter hath surprises for all :D

The best thing would be to rent a Z1 and try it.

Recently shot in a rush on my trusty Z1 with an old Brevis and some other bits and bobs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hag2SCyW8cs

Personally I was making commercials on my Z1 for three years, upgraded to an EX1. The difference is bleedin obvious. But the Z1 is still a trooper. I wouldn't ever trust Canon video cameras to work for very long. Everyone I've ever known about is now broken.

I've cut the EX1 against Digibeta and the EX1 is much better, partly helped by having HD on an SD timeline. Perhaps the Digibeta was an old model, but a camera which can resolve 1000 lines+ is going to look better under normal circumstances. The EX1 handles highlights well and I can make it work for me very well which is half the battle.

Learn how to get the best from your kit and you can make anything sing.

Shot last summer on the EX1 720p http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzEjOOA017c
This is 720p too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDAgWU3_z5Q

I've now started filming masses of cosmetic surgery in 1080p using the EX1, it's going very well using 8 x 16GB SD cards. The lighting situation is awkward in theater but it's workable.

I can second the Canon problems. Both the MV-20i and XM2 I owned had to be regularly repaired for tape transport problems, at a cost of a couple of hundred pounds a year in total. Even knowing the problems and treating the cameras with kid gloves didn't make any difference. I wouldn't touch Canon tape cameras with a bargepole now.